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Other than the fact that 110v outdoor lighting installation is typically more costly and complicated to install, what are the advantages and disadvantages of low voltage vs. 110v outdoor lighting?
Considerations include: - Selection and variety of fixtures - Energy efficiency - Durability/reliability - Effectivenss/brightness of lights - Cost of the fixtures themselves (not including installation costs) - "Resale value"
> Other than the fact that 110v outdoor lighting installation is > typically more costly and complicated to install, what are the > advantages and disadvantages of low voltage vs. 110v outdoor lighting?
Codes. Low voltage is easily installed and inherently safer than 120 volt lighting. Any homeowner can do it and not kill himself or the paper boy when he touches a fixture. Installing a 120 V system usually involves much more labor, permits, more costly wiring, etc. Direct burial cable is needed for 120 V, must be trenched at least 12" deep, have certain setups where it comes up to the fixture. I'd consider using 120 for an end of driveway lamp post, but any of the multiple garden lights and small walk lights, low voltage just makes much more sense.
> Considerations include:
All of these are secondary to the 120V issue by itself.
Yeah but are any of those low voltage lights worth a damn? Seems like they light enough to make themselves known but do little in the way of useful lighting. Maybe someone ought to design a system using a LV version of compact fluorescents. Then they could put out a decent amount of light without drawing too much current to be practical which may be the problem inherent in incandescent LV systems.
Steve Kraus wrote: > Yeah but are any of those low voltage lights worth a damn? Seems like they > light enough to make themselves known but do little in the way of useful > lighting. Maybe someone ought to design a system using a LV version of > compact fluorescents. Then they could put out a decent amount of light > without drawing too much current to be practical which may be the problem > inherent in incandescent LV systems.
Steve:
What you are proposing is extremly dangerous!! Before you go any further on this ask yourself how you're going to feel if you child or grandchild is killed by electrcution from that high voltage lighting system.
Invent something that will produce a brighter light, and pass safety standards you set for you children or grandchildren, it will be marketable and make you a weathy person.
I have some 30w "flood" lights that are actually pretty decent considering they are LV. There are also 50w ones. I use my LV lighting for effect more then anything. They are adequate for lighting a walkway so you can find your way, but you can't really see a lot of detail.
Problem I got with the LV stuff is the price. I've had 2 flood lights just go bad on me, at $15 a pop. They rip you off almost 50% of the cost of an entire unit just to get a replacemtn bulb. But, there's nothing else to use.
"Steve Kraus" <scr...@SPAMBLOCKfilmteknik.com> wrote in message
> Yeah but are any of those low voltage lights worth a damn? Seems like > they > light enough to make themselves known but do little in the way of useful > lighting. Maybe someone ought to design a system using a LV version of > compact fluorescents. Then they could put out a decent amount of light > without drawing too much current to be practical which may be the problem > inherent in incandescent LV systems.
> I have some 30w "flood" lights that are actually pretty decent considering > they are LV. There are also 50w ones. I use my LV lighting for effect more > then anything. They are adequate for lighting a walkway so you can find > your way, but you can't really see a lot of detail.
Well, a 60 watt 120 volt lamp will not exactly turn night into day.
Note that automobile headlight are 12 volt bulbs.
> Problem I got with the LV stuff is the price. I've had 2 flood lights just > go bad on me, at $15 a pop. They rip you off almost 50% of the cost of an > entire unit just to get a replacemtn bulb. But, there's nothing else to > use.
You might stop by the auto parts section of Wally World and pick up an "auxiliary headlight." These are weatherproof and operate on 12 volts. $15 can buy a pair of cheap "fog lights."
> What you are proposing is extremly dangerous!! Before you go any > further on this ask yourself how you're going to feel if you child or > grandchild is killed by electrcution from that high voltage lighting > system.
If you use the proper cable and used proper grounding, there just isn't much risk with running 120 wiring underground.
If you are "Belt & Suspenders" type, you can put a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupter) on the line going outside.
The GFCI provides better protection against personal injury than does grounding. I have a GFCI protected circuits for some of my outside lighting and I haven't had any tripping problems. There is the risk that moisture can get inside fixtures and cause the GFCI to trip even when there isn't a hard fault. But being a "belt & suspenders" type myself, my outdoor fixtures are still grounded. In one case I have "underground" cable protected by being placed in plastic conduit.
I have had a poll light for general front yard light plus some mini accent lamps to light some steps and a mini flood shining on the underside of a porch to iluminate the porch area.
I experimented one night with lamps and this was the most effective combo for the job.
if you want area lighting some 300 or 600 watt halogen reflectors will do the job for say cutting grass. run very long and your electric bill will go sky high.
They now have a fixture that looks like a halogen with a CF lamp much more enrergy efficent although not as brite.
> Other than the fact that 110v outdoor lighting installation is > typically more costly and complicated to install, what are the > advantages and disadvantages of low voltage vs. 110v outdoor lighting?
For pretty much all of your listed considerations there is no real difference between 120V and 12V lighting.
> Considerations include: > - Selection and variety of fixtures
Comparable selections are available in both 120V and 12V versions.
> - Energy efficiency
Little real difference in efficiency from a practical standpoint if you are comparing incandescence or even halogen. Notable efficiency differences appear when you consider fluorescent and HID fixtures which are generally only available in 120V, with HID units only seen in true commercial grade ($$$$) units.
> - Durability/reliability
Again comparable for quality fixtures i.e. cast metal fixtures, not plastic. The low end garbage is just that.
> - Effectivenss/brightness of lights
Again comparable for most uses. For landscape, path and accent lighting fixtures of both types are sufficiently bright. For full building facade lighting units sufficiently bright are only commonly available in 120V versions.
> - Cost of the fixtures themselves (not including installation costs)
Again comparable. A cast metal fixture costs about the same to manufacture, regardless of whether it is wired with a socket for a 120V lamp or a 12V lamp.
> - "Resale value"
Comparable given quality fixtures and good lighting design. An installation with cheap plastic fixtures and/or poor lighting design will have no resale value. A well designed installation with quality metal fixtures will and value regardless of the system voltage.
The main difference between 120V and 12V systems is in the ease of installation and the ease of changing the installation.
Low voltage systems require no permits, inspections or even much skill to install. They lend themselves to "experimental" setups in the evening while you develop the lighting plan. They are also easy to change if you change your landscape layout.
120V Systems often require permits and inspections and require more skill to install though it's not that difficult. Lighting plans generally need to be worked out on paper from a landscape print and fixture specifications which requires a fair amount of skill to get correct. While it is possible to do temporary "experimental" setups with 120V fixtures it is much more tedious and difficult than with 12V fixtures. Once 120V systems are installed they are comparatively difficult to change if you change your landscaping.
Given the relative advantages and disadvantages of each type of system, in larger installations the best option may be to use both types of fixtures, preferably from the same manufacturer. Use the 12V fixtures for most of the landscape and accent lighting where the landscape could change. Use 120V fixtures for items that are both unlikely to change such as lighting large trees, buildings or patio areas and which need higher light levels than are available from common low voltage fixtures.
My two cents on low voltage vs 110v outdoor lighting says that 110v is appropriate for lamps attached to the house, garage, or on a rugged gate, pole lamp, etc, not for stringing into the bushes or for lighting upon garden walkways, for reasons of safety and energy usage.
For 110v, a 2ft trench, PVC conduit, and periodic splice boxes are required. I put a line out to an irrigation pump and A/C outlet on the dock at the waterfront, and will do same for the entrance gate to my property. At the time I that I trenched the 100 feet between the house and watefront, I also buried PVC irrigation pipe, and 3/4" conduits for low voltage wire and for the sprinkler valve system. I put period junction boxes to ease the pulling of wire, and to provide places where I could tap into for the low voltage and irrigation valve system. The 110v is there also should I want to simplify connections for a pool pump or other such outdoor higher voltage needs.
My 900w low voltage system has a variety of lamps that no doubt would increase the resale value of my home because it looks good having accent lights on bushes, in trees, and along walkways, stairs down to the waterfront, and on the dock itself. At Home Depot there are two grades of lighting fixtures (I forget the brandname). The cheaper one has a plastic like decorative finish over aluminum, which quickly wears off in the sun and rain, and then the aluminum oxidizes, and so the fixture looks horribly ugly and soon won't work. The top of the line fixtures, which is all that I will buy now, are still being tested for durability of finish, but so far they look pretty good. The top of the line copper fixtures that the architect would recommend would be a dream to have, and certainly would increase a home resale value, but cost a fortune relative to the best at Home Depot.
I should also note that I've tried the solar low voltage route before with rather disappointing results. The quality of units I used may be the main problem, but I just didn't like the overly dim light cast by the solar powered lamps. The large low voltage system I have in total uses the equivalent of a couple outdoor flood lamps.
One more thing for DIY low voltage installers, when I examined the little penetrating clips used to get power from the low voltage wire to the lamp, I decided that over time, this connection could go bad, so I dipped the connection in Scotchkote electrical coating, the same stuff I used to waterproof my 110V splices, and then covered it in a piece of the plastic packaging that comes with the low voltage lamp so that dirt wouldn't stick to the connection. Instructions say that the wiring can be strung along the ground, but since plastic degrades in sunlight and dogs/children might like to play with the wiring, I dug tiny trenches to cover over the wiring or stuffed it out of sight into the bushes.
> My two cents on low voltage vs 110v outdoor lighting says that 110v is > appropriate for lamps attached to the house, garage, or on a rugged > gate, pole lamp, etc, not for stringing into the bushes or for lighting > upon garden walkways, for reasons of safety and energy usage.
> For 110v, a 2ft trench, PVC conduit, and periodic splice boxes are > required. I put a line out to an irrigation pump and A/C outlet on the > dock at the waterfront, and will do same for the entrance gate to my > property. At the time I that I trenched the 100 feet between the house > and watefront, I also buried PVC irrigation pipe, and 3/4" conduits for > low voltage wire and for the sprinkler valve system. I put period > junction boxes to ease the pulling of wire, and to provide places where > I could tap into for the low voltage and irrigation valve system. The > 110v is there also should I want to simplify connections for a pool > pump or other such outdoor higher voltage needs.
The 24" trench and conduit are not required though they are good practice.
NEC table 300.5 allows for 12" burial depth for type UF cable used on residential branch circuits rated 120V or less with GFCI protection and a maximum 20A overcurrent protection. Note 4 clarifies this.
The same table lists a requirement of 6" burial depth for the same type UF cable used for low voltage lighting and irrigation control purposes limited to 30V or less.
Not a lot of practical difference between direct burial cable at 6" or 12". Of course many low voltage lighting installations end up buried under an inch of mulch at best.
> My 900w low voltage system has a variety of lamps that no doubt > would increase the resale value of my home because it looks good having > accent lights on bushes, in trees, and along walkways, stairs down to > the waterfront, and on the dock itself. At Home Depot there are two > grades of lighting fixtures (I forget the brandname). The cheaper one > has a plastic like decorative finish over aluminum, which quickly wears > off in the sun and rain, and then the aluminum oxidizes, and so the > fixture looks horribly ugly and soon won't work.
I can believe the finish on the cheap ones failing in short order, but they are so simple electrically that they will likely continue to operate properly for a very long time.
> The top of the line > fixtures, which is all that I will buy now, are still being tested for > durability of finish, but so far they look pretty good. The top of the > line copper fixtures that the architect would recommend would be a > dream to have, and certainly would increase a home resale value, but > cost a fortune relative to the best at Home Depot.
Copper is certainly nice, but the epoxy painted or powder coated cast aluminum fixtures of either voltage are quite durable.
> I should also note that I've tried the solar low voltage route before > with rather disappointing results. The quality of units I used may be > the main problem, but I just didn't like the overly dim light cast by > the solar powered lamps. The large low voltage system I have in total > uses the equivalent of a couple outdoor flood lamps.
None of the common solar powered units are worth a damn, plain and simple. They simply do not have a sufficiently large PV panel to generate a useful amount of power for any purpose other than simple driveway edge marking.
This is not to say that solar landscape lighting is not viable, it just isn't with the cheap individual fixtures. A "real" PV panel array rated appropriately, coupled with a charge controller and deep cycle battery could power a viable low voltage lighting system, however the cost would be high and the pay back time based on electricity saved would likely exceed the term of your mortgage.
> One more thing for DIY low voltage installers, when I examined the > little penetrating clips used to get power from the low voltage wire to > the lamp, I decided that over time, this connection could go bad, so I > dipped the connection in Scotchkote electrical coating, the same stuff > I used to waterproof my 110V splices, and then covered it in a piece of > the plastic packaging that comes with the low voltage lamp so that dirt > wouldn't stick to the connection.
A good idea for long term reliability. I think some of the better fixtures have their IDC connections located up in the fixture where they are protected vs. buried in the ground.
> Instructions say that the wiring can > be strung along the ground,
Interesting since that does not meet NEC table 300.5 requirements of 6" cover for 0-30V on direct burial rated wire.
> but since plastic degrades in sunlight and > dogs/children might like to play with the wiring, I dug tiny trenches > to cover over the wiring or stuffed it out of sight into the bushes.
A much better way to do it and more consistent with NEC requirements.
>My two cents on low voltage vs 110v outdoor lighting says that 110v is >appropriate for lamps attached to the house, garage, or on a rugged >gate, pole lamp, etc, not for stringing into the bushes or for lighting >upon garden walkways, for reasons of safety and energy usage.
>For 110v, a 2ft trench, PVC conduit, and periodic splice boxes are >required. I put a line out to an irrigation pump and A/C outlet on the >dock at the waterfront, and will do same for the entrance gate to my >property. At the time I that I trenched the 100 feet between the house >and watefront, I also buried PVC irrigation pipe, and 3/4" conduits for >low voltage wire and for the sprinkler valve system. I put period >junction boxes to ease the pulling of wire, and to provide places where >I could tap into for the low voltage and irrigation valve system. The >110v is there also should I want to simplify connections for a pool >pump or other such outdoor higher voltage needs.
> My 900w low voltage system has a variety of lamps that no doubt >would increase the resale value of my home because it looks good having >accent lights on bushes, in trees, and along walkways, stairs down to >the waterfront, and on the dock itself. At Home Depot there are two >grades of lighting fixtures (I forget the brandname). The cheaper one >has a plastic like decorative finish over aluminum, which quickly wears >off in the sun and rain, and then the aluminum oxidizes, and so the >fixture looks horribly ugly and soon won't work. The top of the line >fixtures, which is all that I will buy now, are still being tested for >durability of finish, but so far they look pretty good. The top of the >line copper fixtures that the architect would recommend would be a >dream to have, and certainly would increase a home resale value, but >cost a fortune relative to the best at Home Depot.
>I should also note that I've tried the solar low voltage route before >with rather disappointing results. The quality of units I used may be >the main problem, but I just didn't like the overly dim light cast by >the solar powered lamps. The large low voltage system I have in total >uses the equivalent of a couple outdoor flood lamps.
>One more thing for DIY low voltage installers, when I examined the >little penetrating clips used to get power from the low voltage wire to >the lamp, I decided that over time, this connection could go bad, so I >dipped the connection in Scotchkote electrical coating, the same stuff >I used to waterproof my 110V splices, and then covered it in a piece of >the plastic packaging that comes with the low voltage lamp so that dirt >wouldn't stick to the connection. Instructions say that the wiring can >be strung along the ground, but since plastic degrades in sunlight and >dogs/children might like to play with the wiring, I dug tiny trenches >to cover over the wiring or stuffed it out of sight into the bushes.
>Good luck...
Right now it takes two cents to "make" a penny, This was an excellent post. I live in the brightest city (place) on earth - Las Vegas. I enjoy the low voltage lights. The guy next door has solar lights and I often see several of them not burning at night. When they do, not much light.
I'm doing low voltage lights now in the landscape (remodel). Good adive you had. Your property sounds like you got it going on.
"Pj" <frysn...@yahoo.com> wrote: > What you are proposing is extremly dangerous!! Before you go any > further on this ask yourself how you're going to feel if you child or > grandchild is killed by electrcution from that high voltage lighting > system.
Huh? Where did I say anything about high voltage? I distinctly said LOW voltage.
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